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Warning [2] Undefined array key "lockoutexpiry" - Line: 550 - File: global.php PHP 8.0.23 (Linux)
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Warning [2] Undefined array key "avatartype" - Line: 811 - File: global.php PHP 8.0.23 (Linux)
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Warning [2] Undefined array key "avatartype" - Line: 811 - File: global.php PHP 8.0.23 (Linux)
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Warning [2] Undefined variable $awaitingusers - Line: 39 - File: global.php(872) : eval()'d code PHP 8.0.23 (Linux)
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Warning [2] Undefined array key "style" - Line: 937 - File: global.php PHP 8.0.23 (Linux)
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Warning [2] Undefined property: MyLanguage::$lang_select_default - Line: 5196 - File: inc/functions.php PHP 8.0.23 (Linux)
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Warning [2] Undefined array key "additionalgroups" - Line: 7360 - File: inc/functions.php PHP 8.0.23 (Linux)
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Warning [2] Undefined array key "additionalgroups" - Line: 7360 - File: inc/functions.php PHP 8.0.23 (Linux)
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Warning [2] Undefined array key "additionalgroups" - Line: 7360 - File: inc/functions.php PHP 8.0.23 (Linux)
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Warning [2] Undefined array key "mybb" - Line: 1997 - File: inc/functions.php PHP 8.0.23 (Linux)
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Warning [2] Undefined property: MyLanguage::$ratings_update_error - Line: 5 - File: showthread.php(768) : eval()'d code PHP 8.0.23 (Linux)
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Warning [2] Undefined variable $postsdone - Line: 901 - File: showthread.php PHP 8.0.23 (Linux)
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Warning [2] Undefined array key 71 - Line: 907 - File: showthread.php PHP 8.0.23 (Linux)
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Warning [2] Undefined array key 133 - Line: 907 - File: showthread.php PHP 8.0.23 (Linux)
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Warning [2] Undefined array key 136 - Line: 907 - File: showthread.php PHP 8.0.23 (Linux)
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Warning [2] Undefined array key 137 - Line: 907 - File: showthread.php PHP 8.0.23 (Linux)
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Warning [2] Undefined array key 146 - Line: 907 - File: showthread.php PHP 8.0.23 (Linux)
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Warning [2] Undefined array key 147 - Line: 907 - File: showthread.php PHP 8.0.23 (Linux)
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Warning [2] Undefined array key 148 - Line: 907 - File: showthread.php PHP 8.0.23 (Linux)
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Warning [2] Undefined array key 164 - Line: 907 - File: showthread.php PHP 8.0.23 (Linux)
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Warning [2] Undefined array key 190 - Line: 907 - File: showthread.php PHP 8.0.23 (Linux)
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Warning [2] Undefined array key 192 - Line: 907 - File: showthread.php PHP 8.0.23 (Linux)
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Photon path ..
#59
(05-28-2016, 05:06 PM)Schmelzer Wrote:
(05-28-2016, 06:45 AM)ALT Wrote: Just WHY are all other velocities affected ? Why can't they be, emm, green or yellow shifted rather that velocity affected ?
Everything else which you throw is affected too.  It gets the velocity you throw it, and the velocity of the train. Why do you think light would be different?  

The relativistic formula for adding velocities has to be used also for everything, in the same way.  And it is more about correcting the distortion you introduce with the Lorentz transformation.  Else, it would be simply addition of velocities.

Schmelzer, I'd like your opinion on this .. (I haven't got the reference I got it from, but no matter) .. particularly that which I've underlined;

Referring to the critique of Poincaré from 1900, Lorentz wrote in his famous paper in 1904, where he extended his theorem of corresponding states: "Surely, the course of inventing special hypotheses for each new experimental result is somewhat artificial. It would be more satisfactory, if it were possible to show, by means of certain fundamental assumptions, and without neglecting terms of one order of magnitude or another, that many electromagnetic actions are entirely independent of the motion of the system.

If Lorentz is on the right track, what can 'entirely independent of the motion of the system' mean, other than exactly what it says, word for word ?

secur
   ALT: You know the main issue with my photon thought experiment, don't you ? If it misses the target (ie, not being influenced by the transverse motion of the emitter) it proves absolute motion / rest .. I think ..

   Sure it does. If the photon is not affected by motion of emitter then it would hit the target only when at rest in the absolute reference frame (arf, as I sometimes call it).

   Yes, only when at absolute rest. Thus a test for absolute motion - if I am right in my thought experiment.

   secur previous: SR deliberately gives no physical explanation, and mainstream physics uses nothing else.

   ALT: The above is a little vague. I assume you mean .. mainstream physics uses nothing else than physical explanation ..

   No, that's exactly what they don't do. They provide no physical explanation, no mechanism. That's the problem, I might say, that this website is trying to fix. I meant: mainstream uses nothing but SR. That's almost always the easiest approach for calculation.

   OK, got it now. It was a little unclear at first.

   ALT: ... meditate on the very instant a photon is emitted. It is wonderfully invigorating.

   I wish more people would do that instead of what they do do!

   ALT: Thanks for your forbearance so far.

   No forbearance required. You're reasonable, do homework and are willing to learn (not perfect but who is). Plus I like your thought experiment. I've been "meditating on" photon emission myself.

   I am happy to hear that :-)

   ------------------------

   First let me repeat: I don't know, from my own observations, that Mr. Calkin is wrong. Maybe scientists really are falling for an illusion as he describes. However my opinion, based on an awful lot of accepted physics, is that the photon hits the target. I'll continue to take that perspective until proven otherwise - which I doubt.

   But given that, I still say the thought experiment is valuable. It makes the hole in SR very clear. Anyone can see the photon must be affected by emitter's motion, but according to SR it's just magic.

   I've seen dozens of cnversations asking the same sort of question, but they're all about either length contraction or time dilation. These are extremely non-intuitive so when SR says it's magic, people just accept it. But here it's a simple physical mechanism. The photon is obviously being "thrown" forward just like a rifle bullet. And, it's explained by ether theory. So this example is much better (than length contraction or time dilation) for motivating an arf. I tried it on a couple non-physicist friends with good success.

   THAT is the issue. I thought that mainstream say it is NOT being thrown forward. I don't want to go over the same stuff we've discussed here many times, though. I need to think about it a lot more.

   Furthermore, I never thought about it until you brought it up. Especially Calkin's paper made the point clear. So, thanks to both of you.

   As for why the photons going forward are "not affected" while the others are - Schmelzer is of course right. It occurs to me that the example of a plane approaching sound barrier is relevant. The sound waves behave much like the light waves, in this regard. The analogy might help.

   I'm not too convinced by the forward wave analogy. It seems redundant. Waves being bunched up in front does not prevent a projectile going rectilinear to the emitter, nor does it require that they go off to either side.

   BTW, I would appreciate your view as well, about the Lorentz comment, above.
Reply


Messages In This Thread
Photon path .. - by ALT - 05-10-2016, 12:30 PM
RE: Photon path .. - by Schmelzer - 05-10-2016, 03:11 PM
RE: Photon path .. - by ALT - 05-11-2016, 01:59 AM
RE: Photon path .. - by Schmelzer - 05-11-2016, 06:46 AM
RE: Photon path .. - by ALT - 05-11-2016, 01:13 PM
RE: Photon path .. - by Schmelzer - 05-11-2016, 02:05 PM
RE: Photon path .. - by rjbeery - 05-10-2016, 10:37 PM
RE: Photon path .. - by secur - 05-10-2016, 11:33 PM
RE: Photon path .. - by secur - 05-11-2016, 01:27 AM
RE: Photon path .. - by secur - 05-11-2016, 04:32 AM
RE: Photon path .. - by ALT - 05-11-2016, 12:24 PM
RE: Photon path .. - by secur - 05-11-2016, 03:17 PM
RE: Photon path .. - by Schmelzer - 05-11-2016, 04:20 PM
RE: Photon path .. - by ALT - 05-12-2016, 04:24 AM
RE: Photon path .. - by Schmelzer - 05-12-2016, 05:48 AM
RE: Photon path .. - by ALT - 05-12-2016, 02:11 PM
RE: Photon path .. - by Schmelzer - 05-12-2016, 05:11 PM
RE: Photon path .. - by secur - 05-12-2016, 08:54 PM
RE: Photon path .. - by ALT - 05-13-2016, 02:17 PM
RE: Photon path .. - by ALT - 05-14-2016, 05:22 AM
RE: Photon path .. - by Schmelzer - 05-14-2016, 06:48 AM
RE: Photon path .. - by ALT - 05-14-2016, 01:28 PM
RE: Photon path .. - by Schmelzer - 05-14-2016, 08:37 PM
RE: Photon path .. - by ALT - 05-15-2016, 01:46 AM
RE: Photon path .. - by secur - 05-14-2016, 07:12 AM
RE: Photon path .. - by Schmelzer - 05-14-2016, 09:37 AM
RE: Photon path .. - by ALT - 05-14-2016, 12:50 PM
RE: Photon path .. - by Schmelzer - 05-15-2016, 04:31 AM
RE: Photon path .. - by ALT - 05-17-2016, 06:58 AM
RE: Photon path .. - by ALT - 05-17-2016, 12:06 PM
RE: Photon path .. - by Schmelzer - 05-17-2016, 03:04 PM
RE: Photon path .. - by secur - 05-17-2016, 07:03 PM
RE: Photon path .. - by Schmelzer - 05-17-2016, 10:32 PM
RE: Photon path .. - by secur - 05-18-2016, 02:27 AM
RE: Photon path .. - by Schmelzer - 05-18-2016, 07:26 AM
RE: Photon path .. - by secur - 05-18-2016, 11:23 PM
RE: Photon path .. - by ALT - 05-19-2016, 03:29 AM
RE: Photon path .. - by secur - 05-19-2016, 04:51 AM
RE: Photon path .. - by ALT - 05-20-2016, 01:23 AM
RE: Photon path .. - by secur - 05-20-2016, 01:52 AM
RE: Photon path .. - by ALT - 05-20-2016, 02:49 AM
RE: Photon path .. - by secur - 05-20-2016, 03:48 AM
RE: Photon path .. - by ALT - 05-20-2016, 06:22 AM
RE: Photon path .. - by ALT - 05-21-2016, 02:13 AM
RE: Photon path .. - by John Duffield - 05-21-2016, 03:02 PM
RE: Photon path .. - by ALT - 05-22-2016, 02:10 AM
RE: Photon path .. - by secur - 05-21-2016, 10:09 PM
RE: Photon path .. - by ALT - 05-22-2016, 02:41 AM
RE: Photon path .. - by ALT - 05-25-2016, 02:01 AM
RE: Photon path .. - by Schmelzer - 05-25-2016, 11:00 AM
RE: Photon path .. - by ALT - 05-25-2016, 12:27 PM
RE: Photon path .. - by secur - 05-26-2016, 02:48 AM
RE: Photon path .. - by ALT - 05-28-2016, 06:45 AM
RE: Photon path .. - by Schmelzer - 05-28-2016, 05:06 PM
RE: Photon path .. - by ALT - 05-29-2016, 04:25 AM
RE: Photon path .. - by John Duffield - 05-22-2016, 08:51 PM
RE: Photon path .. - by ALT - 05-23-2016, 02:01 AM
RE: Photon path .. - by Schmelzer - 05-23-2016, 11:32 AM
RE: Photon path .. - by secur - 05-29-2016, 03:23 AM
RE: Photon path .. - by ALT - 05-29-2016, 04:59 AM
RE: Photon path .. - by secur - 05-29-2016, 06:38 PM
RE: Photon path .. - by ALT - 05-30-2016, 02:10 AM
RE: Photon path .. - by Schmelzer - 05-30-2016, 06:36 AM
RE: Photon path .. - by ALT - 06-01-2016, 02:49 AM
RE: Photon path .. - by Schmelzer - 06-01-2016, 02:23 PM
RE: Photon path .. - by ALT - 06-02-2016, 06:58 AM
RE: Photon path .. - by secur - 06-02-2016, 09:11 AM
RE: Photon path .. - by ALT - 06-02-2016, 12:12 PM
RE: Photon path .. - by secur - 06-03-2016, 07:01 AM
RE: Photon path .. - by Schmelzer - 06-03-2016, 11:52 AM
RE: Photon path .. - by secur - 06-03-2016, 02:56 PM
RE: Photon path .. - by Schmelzer - 06-04-2016, 09:18 AM
RE: Photon path .. - by secur - 06-04-2016, 02:59 PM
RE: Photon path .. - by ALT - 06-04-2016, 01:42 AM
RE: Photon path .. - by secur - 06-04-2016, 04:49 AM
RE: Photon path .. - by Schmelzer - 06-04-2016, 09:53 AM
RE: Photon path .. - by ALT - 06-05-2016, 02:56 AM
RE: Photon path .. - by Schmelzer - 06-04-2016, 04:54 PM
RE: Photon path .. - by secur - 06-05-2016, 02:40 AM
RE: Photon path .. - by secur - 06-05-2016, 04:28 AM
RE: Photon path .. - by ALT - 06-05-2016, 05:19 AM
RE: Photon path .. - by secur - 06-05-2016, 05:56 AM
RE: Photon path .. - by ALT - 06-05-2016, 01:06 PM
RE: Photon path .. - by Schmelzer - 06-05-2016, 01:40 PM
RE: Photon path .. - by ALT - 06-06-2016, 12:01 PM
RE: Photon path .. - by secur - 06-06-2016, 01:11 AM
RE: Photon path .. - by Schmelzer - 06-06-2016, 02:53 PM
RE: Photon path .. - by ALT - 06-07-2016, 06:30 AM
RE: Photon path .. - by Schmelzer - 06-07-2016, 07:00 AM
RE: Photon path .. - by ALT - 06-07-2016, 11:22 AM
RE: Photon path .. - by Schmelzer - 06-07-2016, 12:17 PM
RE: Photon path .. - by ALT - 06-14-2016, 06:21 AM
RE: Photon path .. - by Schmelzer - 06-14-2016, 08:06 AM
RE: Photon path .. - by ALT - 06-10-2016, 06:19 AM
RE: Photon path .. - by secur - 06-12-2016, 01:07 AM
RE: Photon path .. - by ALT - 06-23-2016, 05:45 AM
RE: Photon path .. - by secur - 06-26-2016, 02:08 AM
RE: Photon path .. - by ALT - 07-10-2016, 02:28 AM
RE: Photon path .. - by Thomas Ray - 07-11-2016, 05:38 PM
RE: Photon path .. - by Le Repteux - 07-21-2016, 06:28 PM

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