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Warning [2] Undefined array key "lockoutexpiry" - Line: 550 - File: global.php PHP 8.0.23 (Linux)
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Warning [2] Undefined array key "avatartype" - Line: 811 - File: global.php PHP 8.0.23 (Linux)
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Warning [2] Undefined array key "avatartype" - Line: 811 - File: global.php PHP 8.0.23 (Linux)
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Warning [2] Undefined variable $awaitingusers - Line: 39 - File: global.php(872) : eval()'d code PHP 8.0.23 (Linux)
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Warning [2] Undefined array key "style" - Line: 937 - File: global.php PHP 8.0.23 (Linux)
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Warning [2] Undefined property: MyLanguage::$lang_select_default - Line: 5196 - File: inc/functions.php PHP 8.0.23 (Linux)
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Warning [2] Undefined array key "additionalgroups" - Line: 7360 - File: inc/functions.php PHP 8.0.23 (Linux)
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Warning [2] Undefined array key "additionalgroups" - Line: 7360 - File: inc/functions.php PHP 8.0.23 (Linux)
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Warning [2] Undefined array key "additionalgroups" - Line: 7360 - File: inc/functions.php PHP 8.0.23 (Linux)
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Warning [2] Undefined array key "mybb" - Line: 1997 - File: inc/functions.php PHP 8.0.23 (Linux)
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Warning [2] Undefined property: MyLanguage::$ratings_update_error - Line: 5 - File: showthread.php(768) : eval()'d code PHP 8.0.23 (Linux)
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Warning [2] Undefined variable $postsdone - Line: 901 - File: showthread.php PHP 8.0.23 (Linux)
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Warning [2] Undefined array key 71 - Line: 907 - File: showthread.php PHP 8.0.23 (Linux)
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Warning [2] Undefined array key 133 - Line: 907 - File: showthread.php PHP 8.0.23 (Linux)
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Warning [2] Undefined array key 136 - Line: 907 - File: showthread.php PHP 8.0.23 (Linux)
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Warning [2] Undefined array key 137 - Line: 907 - File: showthread.php PHP 8.0.23 (Linux)
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Warning [2] Undefined array key 146 - Line: 907 - File: showthread.php PHP 8.0.23 (Linux)
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Warning [2] Undefined array key 147 - Line: 907 - File: showthread.php PHP 8.0.23 (Linux)
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Warning [2] Undefined array key 148 - Line: 907 - File: showthread.php PHP 8.0.23 (Linux)
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Warning [2] Undefined array key 164 - Line: 907 - File: showthread.php PHP 8.0.23 (Linux)
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Warning [2] Undefined array key 190 - Line: 907 - File: showthread.php PHP 8.0.23 (Linux)
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Warning [2] Undefined array key 192 - Line: 907 - File: showthread.php PHP 8.0.23 (Linux)
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Photon path ..
#52
Hi secur;

ALT, thanks for Mr. Calkin's paper "A REPORT ON HOW THE OPTICAL LASER DISPROVES THE SPECIAL THEORY OF RELATIVITY - SUBMITTAL FOR PEER REVIEW".

Your question in this thread, regarding the photon emitter on a moving platform shooting at a co-moving target, is right on, and captures the essence of the paper. As Schmelzer, John Duffield, and I say, yes it does hit it. But none of us has given a "mechanical" reason: that's just the way SR works. You (and Mr. Calkin) aren't satisfied with that answer, and neither am I. "The theory says so" is not enough.

Agree. To say that's just how it works is saying nothing other than 'I don't know'. Nothing is metaphysical - all is physical, even if not yet understood.

I don't know "why" and am not sure anyone else does either. As I mentioned a few posts ago, the first task is to make sure it's really true. That means finding an experiment which clearly demonstrates it. It's conceivable there isn't one; instead we infer it from experiments which, while not clearly showing it, wouldn't work without this fact. If lucky, someone will post a link to the relevant experiment tomorrow. Else it might take a while to find it; I'm busy these days.

I can't emphasize this point enough. Theory is all very well and good but experiment is trumps. Experiments can't be wrong (when replicated sufficiently).

A long time ago, I recall that I DID come up with some experimental evidence to the effect that the photon misses. From real scientists, using real equipment. I have been struggling to find it again, but no luck. If I do, I will post it.

What are the chances SR is wrong about this: that actually the photon will not hit the target? Sorry, the chance is zero (IMHO). All these facts are tied together. If this one (rather obscure) point were wrong no doubt other, much less obscure, points are too; but they're not (more on this later).

We are moving away from the OP .. probably into Philosophy of science, but quickly ..

The chances of SR being wrong in our world today are about the same as the flat earth or the geocentric universe being wrong to the prevailing cosmology of those eras .. also then thought to be zero. Why, even questioning of 'turtles' would have probably resulted in you being boiled, garnished and eaten for dinner, were you a member of the particular tribe who held that cosmology.

Personally I strongly suspect that Lorentz was right, there is an absolute reference frame.

Ah (my bolded)! Isn't THAT then, basically a powerful doubt of  SR ?

This may be yet another place where explaining it in his terms makes more sense than SR. If the emitter (or laser) is physically length-contracted, that may provide a "mechanical" explanation for the phenomenon.

If one questions (I repeat QUESTIONS) SR, then by default, they are questioning length contraction, time dilation, etc. In any case, going with your 'may', in which direction would it be contracted ? And how would that put it on a slant ?

But now let me back up a bit. Since I don't really know the photon hits the target (except by trusting SR's math, which of course I do, in situations which have been accessible to current test apparatus) I'm not in a position to simply dismiss this paper out of hand. So let me review it without that assumption.


Mr. Calkin's understanding of Maxwell's equations is flawed. "As predicted by Maxwell’s equations, electromagnetic waves, including light, do not conform to the principle of relativity." That's wrong. Relativity is implied by Maxwell, as Einstein discussed in "The Electrodynamics of Moving Bodies". "The reference frame for which Maxwell’s equations took their simplest form was ... at rest in the ether." He doesn't explain why he thinks this. It's more-or-less wrong, but he may have a good reason for saying it; I can think of a couple; could come down to mere semantics.

Highly recommend you read Wikipedia: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/History_of...relativity. One quote: "Maxwell's equations, when they were first stated in their complete form in 1865, would turn out to be compatible with special relativity." Mr. Calkin should also read this excellent historical article: it will open his eyes.

"This was one of the great puzzles of physics at the beginning of the 20th century. Einstein solved the puzzle using his famous thought experiments." No, the puzzles were solved by Lorentz, Poincare and others; Einstein "borrowed" their solutions. Of course these historical matters aren't physics, but they help understand why SR is so confusing. Lorentz's work is (usually) more illuminating when dealing with good questions like this one.

"Neither Dr. Einstein nor any physicist in the early part of the 20th century had the benefit of possessing a laser ... The directionality of light wasn’t even recognized as an issue." They didn't have lasers but they understood "directionality of light" very well. Read that Wikipedia article. Those guys were far more sophisticated than Mr. Calkin thinks. He's misled by pop-science.

It turns out my intuition about Calkin's ideas re. bending of light by gravity was correct (mentioned in post above) - no surprise there. Mr. Calkin needs to reject it, given his basic thesis, and does so. He also has to reject time dilation! His logic might be correct and it illustrates what I said above. If you deny this apparently small fact about the photon hitting the target, the whole edifice crumbles and you wind up denying other, undeniable, facts too. IF his logic is correct it disproves his thesis! Because time dilation and light-bending are experimentally proven. Time dilation is demonstrated by muons travelling from the upper atmosphere to Earth and many other experiments. Bending of light by gravity is demonstrated by much more than just going through the Sun's atmosphere (as Mr. Calkin clearly thinks). For instance, gravitational lensing.

Finally his comments about the "human condition" are good: sociological factors can, and do, lead science down blind alleys which waste, literally, centuries of effort. I suspect Einsteinian relativity might be such a case.

I sympathize with Mr. Calkin. I'm sure he asked physicists this question, expecting a reasonable response, and instead was treated as though he'd spit on the Koran (metaphorically). So he decided physics had become some sort of weird religious cult (somewhat true); that he knew as much as they did (not true); and went off disgusted, but undaunted, to develop his ideas. Admirable, but the result is incorrect IMHO.

I am not a scientist, not a physicist, not even good at basic maths - except when it relates to my occupation which is in the area of finance, investments, trading, etc. Much of what you say above is therefore totally over my head, and I do not have the inclination to persue it. NOT because I an being unfair, but because I believe if something is tainted at the source, what's the point ? If your steering wheel is breaks on the motorway, chances are, the rest of your car will soon be too.

Also, understand, I offered Calkins material, ONLY so as to articulate better, the simple issue I was trying to make about the photon. I might add, that the 5 papers I referred to earlier which he has sent me recently, seem to cover the issues you raise. I say 'seem', because they are totally beyond my level of expertise.

Ah, yes, the human condition. Let me tell you something. I am very familiar with it. In my profession, I often deal with highly complex, highly intelligent, super wealthy individuals, who try to convince me of certain dubious things. And the methods and style they display in doing so, are often, not different to those I see from SOME scientists in the course of their defence of SR.

To summarize.

SR must be right: the photon hits that target. However since I don't thoroughly know this (by experiment, I mean) I'm not asserting it like some High Priest. Let's get the experimental evidence, and if possible understand "why" the photon takes the path it does. The physics community "owes" Mr. Calkin an explanation, understandable without years of study, and I'd like to give it to him. However I'm busy and it may take a while (like, months).

Why does the physics community owe you, and Mr. Calkin, that? One, because, ultimately, taxpayers pay their salaries. Two, because they don't understand it themselves if they can't explain it to laypersons.

I have commented on this in an earlier post.

To summarise.

No physical evidence has been given as to why the photon is not influenced by the rectilinear motion of the emitter, but supposedly, IS influenced by it's transverse motion.

To say it is because of SR, when it seems that it is SR that I am therefore questioning, is circular nonsense.


(05-23-2016, 11:32 AM)Schmelzer Wrote:
(05-23-2016, 02:01 AM)ALT Wrote: I can't seem to find any formatting buttons for selective quoting.

The normal way is simply to press the reply button.  Then, the whole post is quoted.  And then one simply deletes all what one does not want to answer.

That, however, gets somewhat unworkable, when one wants reply as I have, in above post. I saw no formatting marks, such as /[ ..  ], etc as in other forums. It is not a problem, I just thought I would let you know.
Reply


Messages In This Thread
Photon path .. - by ALT - 05-10-2016, 12:30 PM
RE: Photon path .. - by Schmelzer - 05-10-2016, 03:11 PM
RE: Photon path .. - by ALT - 05-11-2016, 01:59 AM
RE: Photon path .. - by Schmelzer - 05-11-2016, 06:46 AM
RE: Photon path .. - by ALT - 05-11-2016, 01:13 PM
RE: Photon path .. - by Schmelzer - 05-11-2016, 02:05 PM
RE: Photon path .. - by rjbeery - 05-10-2016, 10:37 PM
RE: Photon path .. - by secur - 05-10-2016, 11:33 PM
RE: Photon path .. - by secur - 05-11-2016, 01:27 AM
RE: Photon path .. - by secur - 05-11-2016, 04:32 AM
RE: Photon path .. - by ALT - 05-11-2016, 12:24 PM
RE: Photon path .. - by secur - 05-11-2016, 03:17 PM
RE: Photon path .. - by Schmelzer - 05-11-2016, 04:20 PM
RE: Photon path .. - by ALT - 05-12-2016, 04:24 AM
RE: Photon path .. - by Schmelzer - 05-12-2016, 05:48 AM
RE: Photon path .. - by ALT - 05-12-2016, 02:11 PM
RE: Photon path .. - by Schmelzer - 05-12-2016, 05:11 PM
RE: Photon path .. - by secur - 05-12-2016, 08:54 PM
RE: Photon path .. - by ALT - 05-13-2016, 02:17 PM
RE: Photon path .. - by ALT - 05-14-2016, 05:22 AM
RE: Photon path .. - by Schmelzer - 05-14-2016, 06:48 AM
RE: Photon path .. - by ALT - 05-14-2016, 01:28 PM
RE: Photon path .. - by Schmelzer - 05-14-2016, 08:37 PM
RE: Photon path .. - by ALT - 05-15-2016, 01:46 AM
RE: Photon path .. - by secur - 05-14-2016, 07:12 AM
RE: Photon path .. - by Schmelzer - 05-14-2016, 09:37 AM
RE: Photon path .. - by ALT - 05-14-2016, 12:50 PM
RE: Photon path .. - by Schmelzer - 05-15-2016, 04:31 AM
RE: Photon path .. - by ALT - 05-17-2016, 06:58 AM
RE: Photon path .. - by ALT - 05-17-2016, 12:06 PM
RE: Photon path .. - by Schmelzer - 05-17-2016, 03:04 PM
RE: Photon path .. - by secur - 05-17-2016, 07:03 PM
RE: Photon path .. - by Schmelzer - 05-17-2016, 10:32 PM
RE: Photon path .. - by secur - 05-18-2016, 02:27 AM
RE: Photon path .. - by Schmelzer - 05-18-2016, 07:26 AM
RE: Photon path .. - by secur - 05-18-2016, 11:23 PM
RE: Photon path .. - by ALT - 05-19-2016, 03:29 AM
RE: Photon path .. - by secur - 05-19-2016, 04:51 AM
RE: Photon path .. - by ALT - 05-20-2016, 01:23 AM
RE: Photon path .. - by secur - 05-20-2016, 01:52 AM
RE: Photon path .. - by ALT - 05-20-2016, 02:49 AM
RE: Photon path .. - by secur - 05-20-2016, 03:48 AM
RE: Photon path .. - by ALT - 05-20-2016, 06:22 AM
RE: Photon path .. - by ALT - 05-21-2016, 02:13 AM
RE: Photon path .. - by John Duffield - 05-21-2016, 03:02 PM
RE: Photon path .. - by ALT - 05-22-2016, 02:10 AM
RE: Photon path .. - by secur - 05-21-2016, 10:09 PM
RE: Photon path .. - by ALT - 05-22-2016, 02:41 AM
RE: Photon path .. - by ALT - 05-25-2016, 02:01 AM
RE: Photon path .. - by Schmelzer - 05-25-2016, 11:00 AM
RE: Photon path .. - by ALT - 05-25-2016, 12:27 PM
RE: Photon path .. - by secur - 05-26-2016, 02:48 AM
RE: Photon path .. - by ALT - 05-28-2016, 06:45 AM
RE: Photon path .. - by Schmelzer - 05-28-2016, 05:06 PM
RE: Photon path .. - by ALT - 05-29-2016, 04:25 AM
RE: Photon path .. - by John Duffield - 05-22-2016, 08:51 PM
RE: Photon path .. - by ALT - 05-23-2016, 02:01 AM
RE: Photon path .. - by Schmelzer - 05-23-2016, 11:32 AM
RE: Photon path .. - by secur - 05-29-2016, 03:23 AM
RE: Photon path .. - by ALT - 05-29-2016, 04:59 AM
RE: Photon path .. - by secur - 05-29-2016, 06:38 PM
RE: Photon path .. - by ALT - 05-30-2016, 02:10 AM
RE: Photon path .. - by Schmelzer - 05-30-2016, 06:36 AM
RE: Photon path .. - by ALT - 06-01-2016, 02:49 AM
RE: Photon path .. - by Schmelzer - 06-01-2016, 02:23 PM
RE: Photon path .. - by ALT - 06-02-2016, 06:58 AM
RE: Photon path .. - by secur - 06-02-2016, 09:11 AM
RE: Photon path .. - by ALT - 06-02-2016, 12:12 PM
RE: Photon path .. - by secur - 06-03-2016, 07:01 AM
RE: Photon path .. - by Schmelzer - 06-03-2016, 11:52 AM
RE: Photon path .. - by secur - 06-03-2016, 02:56 PM
RE: Photon path .. - by Schmelzer - 06-04-2016, 09:18 AM
RE: Photon path .. - by secur - 06-04-2016, 02:59 PM
RE: Photon path .. - by ALT - 06-04-2016, 01:42 AM
RE: Photon path .. - by secur - 06-04-2016, 04:49 AM
RE: Photon path .. - by Schmelzer - 06-04-2016, 09:53 AM
RE: Photon path .. - by ALT - 06-05-2016, 02:56 AM
RE: Photon path .. - by Schmelzer - 06-04-2016, 04:54 PM
RE: Photon path .. - by secur - 06-05-2016, 02:40 AM
RE: Photon path .. - by secur - 06-05-2016, 04:28 AM
RE: Photon path .. - by ALT - 06-05-2016, 05:19 AM
RE: Photon path .. - by secur - 06-05-2016, 05:56 AM
RE: Photon path .. - by ALT - 06-05-2016, 01:06 PM
RE: Photon path .. - by Schmelzer - 06-05-2016, 01:40 PM
RE: Photon path .. - by ALT - 06-06-2016, 12:01 PM
RE: Photon path .. - by secur - 06-06-2016, 01:11 AM
RE: Photon path .. - by Schmelzer - 06-06-2016, 02:53 PM
RE: Photon path .. - by ALT - 06-07-2016, 06:30 AM
RE: Photon path .. - by Schmelzer - 06-07-2016, 07:00 AM
RE: Photon path .. - by ALT - 06-07-2016, 11:22 AM
RE: Photon path .. - by Schmelzer - 06-07-2016, 12:17 PM
RE: Photon path .. - by ALT - 06-14-2016, 06:21 AM
RE: Photon path .. - by Schmelzer - 06-14-2016, 08:06 AM
RE: Photon path .. - by ALT - 06-10-2016, 06:19 AM
RE: Photon path .. - by secur - 06-12-2016, 01:07 AM
RE: Photon path .. - by ALT - 06-23-2016, 05:45 AM
RE: Photon path .. - by secur - 06-26-2016, 02:08 AM
RE: Photon path .. - by ALT - 07-10-2016, 02:28 AM
RE: Photon path .. - by Thomas Ray - 07-11-2016, 05:38 PM
RE: Photon path .. - by Le Repteux - 07-21-2016, 06:28 PM

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