Hidden Variables
Bans in other forums - Printable Version

+- Hidden Variables (https://ilja-schmelzer.de/hidden-variables)
+-- Forum: Everything Else (https://ilja-schmelzer.de/hidden-variables/forumdisplay.php?fid=15)
+--- Forum: Alternative Science vs. Mainstream Science (https://ilja-schmelzer.de/hidden-variables/forumdisplay.php?fid=17)
+--- Thread: Bans in other forums (/showthread.php?tid=21)

Pages: 1 2


Bans in other forums - Schmelzer - 05-06-2016

I think, a quite common problem of people who propose some alternative theories is that they are unwanted in scientific forums.  The end of this is often that they will be simply banned. 



Here I will have to start with an example of such a ban:  I have been banned today on http://www.physicsforums.com/ for making an announcement that this forum is opened.  Here is what I have tried to post there:

Quote:I hope this is the correct place to make such an announcement. I recognize that advertising other forums with a similar topic is nothing moderators would like to see in their forums. But the situation is, in this case, a little bit different.

The point which makes me hope that this advertisement will not be removed, is that the forum I have opened for public use today will be interesting for a group of users which this forum does not want to attract at all, because they would like to do things which are explicitly forbidden here, like:

Quote:Discussion of theories that appear only on personal web sites, self-published books, etc.
Challenges to mainstream theories (relativity, the Big Bang, etc.) that go beyond current professional discussion
Attempts to promote or resuscitate theories that have been discredited or superseded (e.g. Lorentz ether theory); this does not exclude discussion of those theories in a purely historical context
Personal theories or speculations that go beyond or counter to generally-accepted science

So, I would even suggest the moderation team to put a visible link to this forum at places where this would be visible to those who want to do such things.  

The forum I would like to advertise here is named <a href="http://ilja-schmelzer.de/forum/"> Hidden Variables</a>.  The name already indicates the main topic: Hidden Variable theories or interpretations of the theories of modern physics. 

That means, even if it is open to theories which are not mainstream, and therefore not appropriate in this forum, it is also not open to arbitrary non-mainstream nonsense. A first restriction is that it is about physics, so no 9/11, moon landing, intelligent design.  Then, the theories should be viable, compatible with existing empirical evidence. 

The personal reason to open a forum to discuss such theories is an obvious one: I propose such hidden variable theories myself. These theories are not mainstream, but sufficiently close to it - they have been published in peer-reviewed mainstream papers, and give the theories of modern physics - general relativity, the standard model of particle physics - as their limits. And this is what those who propose alternative theories have to reach too, if they want to survive in the forum. So, this forum will be in no way supportive for cranks simply because the admin favors some non-mainstream theories.  

The thread was immediately removed, and I have received a message that to post such an announcement I would need the permission of the chief.  I have tried to contact him, and asked for a permission.  The result was that I have been banned now.


PS:  I see that the ban has been only a temporary one, or a technical error or so, whatever, I'm no longer banned there.  Unfortunately, the request for permission of the announcement was rejected.  Looks not very rational to me, but such is life.


RE: Bans in other forums - xelasnave - 05-07-2016

I can understand their position.
Their concerns are simply they may "lose customers".
I encourage patience.
I helped generate traffic on a couple of sites by becoming the resident crackpot. And by being outrageous folk joined I am sure to take me down. I was always polite and welcomed their input and it grew.
I think your "market" may be folk who have been badly treated elsewhere.
Of course they well be crackpots but if treated with respect they possibly tell others.
I was in marketing and word of mouth works very well.
I suspect there are many folk similar to me who have an interest but see little point in joining cosmoquest for example where it is sport to ridicule folk.
From the desiderata... Listen to the dull and the ignorant for they too have their story.
There are sites where mainstream seems to be similar in structure to a church to the uninformed. I think the person with a casual interest becomes dismissive and I get the impression many who carry on about mainstream do so in a fashion that real scientists would find upsetting.
In any event you may find many will avoid your site for fear of ridicule.. It crossed my mind and so it may be in others thoughts.
It comes down to what you expect to achieve.
Grinding your axe for no other purpose than self promotion probably will not work.
Traffic will come. There are billions of humans and taking even a small percentage we can expect thousands in time.
Look on the bright side membership has increased by 100% in 24 hours.

Alex


RE: Bans in other forums - secur - 05-07-2016

(05-07-2016, 02:18 AM)xelasnave Wrote: Look on the bright side membership has increased by 100% in 24 hours.

at that rate in a few weeks you'll need a bigger server :-)

When I had an alternate philosophy site 20 years ago I got up to a thousand members by making acceptable posts at the bigger sites, establishing a decent reputation (took a week or so). Then I would always reference a post on my own site when the opportunity arose. When I noticed an interesting topic elsewhere I might start a thread on my site regarding that same topic, to reference.

So instead of simply advertising your site refer to it as part of the conversation.

To clarify a possible misunderstanding: I always did this "legitimately" and recommend the same. The point was never to "steal" traffic, but to pick up the alternative traffic that otherwise would just wander away in disgust.

For example a month ago "teo del fuego" on PF asked what physical effect caused the twin to age less (in the famous twin paradox). SR really has no answer, but Lorentz can point to contraction which, at least, is a physical effect (although that it should specifically reduce aging seems unlikely). He liked the idea a lot. Unfortunately his threads were blocked twice in a row, and he left disappointed. Perhaps I'll PM him and recommend that he ask about it here. teo del fuego is a reasonable person and his question deserves better consideration.

Let me make one point clear: PF is a great site. It has a "mission" and does it very well. They don't want alternate theories; that's fine, it's their call. This site is not "competition", it's "complementary" - takes what they don't want.


RE: Bans in other forums - Schmelzer - 05-07-2016

(05-07-2016, 02:18 AM)xelasnave Wrote: I can understand their position.
Their concerns are simply they may "lose customers". 
No.  What I was trying to tell them was that the "customers" they could loose would be those they explicitly do not want to have there.  The explanation was different - they do not want to support anything alternative, out of principle.  

So, I agree here with secur, they are not competitors, but complementary.


RE: Bans in other forums - ALT - 05-08-2016

Hello and best wishes for this forum. I hope it does well, as something like this is certainly needed.

To lay my cards on the table up front, I am a complete layman, and have no scientific or mathematical background. That however, does not, I feel, disqualify me from having a view on reality and cosmology. Nor does it make my view, necessarily, more wrong or right.

So if a complete layman is not the kind of member you are after, let me know and I will exit at this point.

About the OP - bans in other forums.

I have been an avid reader of various science forums, mainly physicsforums.com (PF) and sciforums.com (SF) for nearly two decades, though I rarely if ever, contribute. I just like reading arguments between intelligent people, at the cutting edge of reality.

About PF, well, at least they don't make any pretences about entertaining any alternative or non mainstream discussion. In fact, they are quite explicit about their intolerance of it, and are therefore quite entitled to do what they do.

Incidentally, there was one mentor there, with over 60,000 (?) posts, one 'marcus' who I took a great liking to, and always immediately gravitated to his posts and read them deeply, because he showed great intellect but always with great humility, and was NEVER abusive or condescending. And he had the ability to put things in layman's language that I understood .. mostly.


I was very saddened to read just a day or two ago, that he has passed on. A great loss to PF - no one there approached his humility, intellect, patience and generosity of spirit.  

About SF .. ah, well, that is a different animal.

The do make the pretence of allowing alternative discussion - even pseudo-science, but then contrive to quash any discussion that goes to far, or beyond their comfort level, by sometimes odious methods, such as bullying, ridiculing, trolling, and dragging the contributor off topic.

There is one particular troll there, 'paddoboy' who seems to have no other purpose in mind than to destabilise a thread that is getting to uncomfortable - for the best brains there.

And a pity, most people fall for it and the thread end up hopeless. It almost seems to me in fact, that they work in concert - play good cop / bad cop / worse cop, just to stop any discussion that threatens their comfort zone.

And I say all this as an observer only.

No matter. This place right here looks good and I hope it prospers. I hope to ask some interesting questions in due course.

Cheers;

ALT


RE: Bans in other forums - xelasnave - 05-08-2016

Hi there Alt
I hope you are welcomed here.
That is sad news about Marcus H.
He impressed me as well.

You may enjoy the discussion going here about common sence.
Alex


RE: Bans in other forums - Schmelzer - 05-08-2016

Marcus - that is indeed a great loss for PF.

ALT, you are, of course, welcome. Laymen are not a problem at all, all what is required is that they follow the elementary rules of politeness. Even paddoboy would be welcome, but he would have to change his style, I would rigorously censor any personal attacks.

I hope I may be helpful even to explain something about mainstream physics to laymen, if they have questions about it. I may be an ether theorist, but my ether theories are based on the theories and equations of modern physics, so I will defend these theories - which are, in this sense, the base of my own theories - too. Defend against cranks and explain them to laymen.


RE: Bans in other forums - ALT - 05-09-2016

(05-08-2016, 02:21 PM)xelasnave Wrote: Hi there Alt
I hope you are welcomed here.
That is sad news about Marcus H.
He impressed me as well.

You may enjoy the discussion going here about common sence.
Alex

Hi Alex, and thank you. Yes, very sad news about marcus.
I have read the discussion about common sense, and hope to make a post in the next day or so.

(05-08-2016, 05:12 PM)Schmelzer Wrote: Marcus - that is indeed a great loss for PF.  

ALT, you are, of course, welcome.  Laymen are not a problem at all, all what is required is that they follow the elementary rules of politeness.  Even paddoboy would be welcome, but he would have to change his style, I would rigorously censor any personal attacks.

I hope I may be helpful even to explain something about mainstream physics to laymen, if they have questions about it.  I may be an ether theorist, but my ether theories are based on the theories and equations of modern physics, so I will defend these theories - which are, in this sense, the base of my own theories - too.  Defend against cranks and explain them to laymen.
Hi Schmelzer and thank you for the welcome.

All you said is noted.

There is one issue concerning the behaviour of a photon, that has bugged me for many years. Years ago, I tried to explore the issue at different times in the aforementioned forums but with no success. Both endeavours ended predictably (termination on PF and derailment on SF).

In the next day or so I will put my query here and see how I go.


RE: Bans in other forums - secur - 05-19-2016

I signed up at "CosmoQuest", http://cosmoquest.org/forum/forum.php. It seems quite good for two reasons. One, they know a lot more about astronomy than Physics Forum. Perhaps I can finally get some answers about galaxies. Two, they have a subforum "Against the Mainstream" where one can discuss alternate theories.

Schmelzer I see you put the ether theory on ATM forum. The discussion was not great but better than anywhere else. You certainly didn't "lose" whatever macaw says. He, BTW, has now been banned.

Can you go post it again? Or is that not allowed? Why don't you try with the Fermion paper? Is it worth the trouble?

What is your opinion of CosmoQuest? Seems much better than some blogs I could mention :-)


RE: Bans in other forums - Schmelzer - 05-19-2016

Yes, I see, I have had several threads there, but not explicitly about the fermion paper.  The reason was, as I remember, some frustration about the discussion there. 

There was a thread where I was obliged 1.) to answer all questions (by the general rules), 2.) not to argue about the former threads which have already been closed.  With this macaw constantly making points about the old threads, so that I was in a position where it was even impossible to follow these rules.  

And, moreover, he was making ... comments in conflict with standard  Popperian (that means mainstream) scientific methodology, and, then, at the end I was blamed for rejecting this ... based on methodology as arguing about philosophy, which is a bad word there.

But I will think about it.  Maybe I will do it in some future.  Actually I see they have accepted a link to this forum in my signature, so it may be more helpful to make some comments there from time to time about various questions raised by others. A particular discussion about the SM part would last 30 days and then become essentially invisible.  It may be worth the trouble in some future, but actually I have a lot of other things to do with higher priority - improving as the forum, as the websites, writing a paper about the relation between dBB and Copenhagen (rough idea: dBB does not contradict Copenhagen, but unifies its quantum and classical part), an idea caused by somebody who considers Copenhagen as much better and different in its predictions from dBB.  Wink